Tuesday, December 12, 2006

Hurty Hand for Having

Even though my tournament in Vegas only last 5 hours, I can say it was one of the most enjoyable tourneys I've played in. The quality of play was very solid and I didn't encounter any attitudes or egos that sometime make playing miserable.
In the middle of the 4th level my table broke and I moved to Seat 10 at Table 57. On my right was Mimi Tran. On her right was Tony Cousineau. In Seat 1, on my left, was David Daneshgar (he's having a decent year) , who had also been on my left at my previous table. In Seat 2 was recent WPT runner-up Jason Stern. I was about average stacked with around 9000 TC when I was dealt A2 off-suit in the big blind(25-100-200). Daneshgar, who began the hand with around 4500 TC, limped under the gun as did several other with me checking the blind and seeing the flop with 5 others. (1450 in the pot). The flop was AhAx5h. The little blind checked and I bet 1200. Daneshgar smooth called and everyone else floded. (3650 in the pot) At this point I really felt I was behind. What could he call with? Maybe a heart draw, but more likely an ace and any ace had me beat. The turn was the Kc. I decided to check to find out where I was. If he had an ace, he'd have to bet to get me off a possible heart draw. If he had hearts, he'd probably check behind me. He checked behind me. The river was a non-heart 4. Now what do I do. I decided to bet 1800. He instantly moves all-in for an additional 1000. How can I not be beat? But, how can I not call an additional 1000 into a 7200 pot? Of course, I call. Of course he flopped a full house with 55. Presto. Now I'm short-stacked. Thoughts?

18 comments:

TBR said...

Smooth-calling 1/3 of his stack (when he's short) with three yet to act behind him certainly indicates a monster. Would seem like a non-premium ace and, possibly, a heart draw would move in there. Add to that the limp UTG with an M of just under 10, and I'm thinking AK or 55 are the only options. To that end, the K is actually a good card for you on the turn because perhaps it makes it easier to check-fold on the river.

The $1800 bet on the river is good for only one thing: it keeps you from having to fold. There's no hand that calls you that you beat, and there's no hand you can beat if raised (but, again, since it's so small, you have to call). Hindsight is 20/20, but perhaps a check and the decide what to do is more optimal. Assuming DD is playing some kind of a flush draw (say, KhQh), he might still move in, but there he would be betting 2800 into a 3700 pot hoping you don't hae an ace when you bet into 5 players on the flop.

Very tough hand. The only other way it could have played out for you is if managed to check-fold on the river. If you raised-preflop (say $1200 more), I bet DD moves in, so you'd still be down at least $1200 more on the hand. And you can't check the flop, but if you do, I bet DD checks behind you and your betting 1200 on the turn.

Tulsa said...

Good. Grief. I dunno. I think the only way I play it differently is, like Randy said, I again check the river. I think if the 1200 is called by a good player with folks to act behind him, I'm done with the hand. Just done with it. T.J. (I know, I know) talks in his book about having the discipline to say to yourself, after this, I'm done with the hand, I don't care what the pot odds are. Not one more penny. And I think that's one of those hands, unless an ace or 2 comes. That said, in that moment, it would have been hard to lay that hand down on the river if he pushed out 1500 or 1800. Because that's the bet a busted flush draw makes, right? Ugh. Double. Ugh.

Gonz said...

I see what Tulsa is saying about a good player smooth calling the 1200 bet on the flop with more players still to act behind him. No doubt, alarm bells would ring. And Tiny cops to that--he knew something was up. I just dunno about the TJ stuff--not all of it, anuyway.

Tiny checked on the turn to see where he was, and I don't mind that play. And given what Tiny knows about the hand thereafter (that a good player limped, smooth called, and then checked with two aces and a flush draw on the board), I'd probably evaluate the hand the same way Tiny did--he probably has a bigger Ace than me or a flush draw. I'm not sure that I'd put him on pocket 5s (but, hey, if you can, then good on ya). Either way, when the river is a blank, Tiny has two options--bet (as he did, hoping that the guy missed his draw or that he can push him off the pot), or do the TJ thing and check, at which point he's totally given up. But, see, I don't mind betting out, because if Tiny checks there, he might have to call whatever Daneshgar bets anyway, so why not give Daneshgar a chance to lay down? And once Tiny decides to bet the river, and he's raised all-in, Tiny HAS to call the extra grand given the odds.

Maybe Tiny checks the river. Maybe. I dunno. Honestly, I think he played it fine. I think that's one of those hands you'd see on TV and go--oh, shit, Tiny is really fucked here and I bet he loses a lot of his chips and it's really not his fault. I think it would have been very, very difficult, if not impossible, for Tiny to avoid his fate, however grim.

TBR said...

let's look at this from DD's standpoint--We know he's short, we know he limped while short from UTG and we know he called 1/3 of his stack on a flop of AA5 with three players yet to act behind him. One more thing: we know he is a very, very good player. What could have have?

AK? possible. Why raise with AK. He is trying to double up. If Todd has an A, it's not likely to be as high as AK (or he would have raise PF), and if he has A5, he'd figure Todd probably checks to three other players.

pair below ace (not 55)? okay against one or maybe two players, but not with three yet to act and the likelihood that 5 players in an unraised pot likely have an ace (likely sooted). And not for a third of his stack when already short.

55? Very possible. PF limp makes sense, and there is no reason to raise since any ace behind him would likely raise Todd's bet and allow DD to get all his chips in; and if Todd has an ace, he may likley get more from him (having to dodge the minor threat of Todd catching one of his three outs).

Flush draw? Could he really call 1/3 of his chips off with three players yet to act with a flush draw? maybe Coco, but not this player.

This is one those hands, I think, that upon further reflection and upon grinding all the information becomes pretty clear. Todd played it fine, like any of us would, but I am convinced that DD is not playing a flush draw after the information we have accumulated on the flop.

And I respectfully disagree with Gonz. There was enough info in the hand for Todd to possibly save the last 2800. It was not an,"oh no, it's all going in" hand.

Gonz said...

It's true--Tiny, you blow (see above post).

Come on. Look, yes, in retrospect it's easy to discount the flush draw and put him on 55. In retrospet. And you do make some good points about him dropping 1/3 of his stack on a draw--probably wouldn't happen given how solid the guy is (unless he was totally on tilt and ready to gamble or go home). So, if anything, I would have been woried about a bigger ace. In the heat of the moment, though, I still think putting him on 55 would be difficult.

Gonz said...

And by difficult I mean easy for TBR. And maybe Dan.

TBR said...

Gonz--all I'm saying is "in retrospect." Again, not saying Todd played it any differently than any of us would, certainly myself included. More just think it's interesting that, upon first blush, this looks like one those hands you can't do anything about. But on further reflection, maybe it wasn't as clear as that, and in fact, there was a path for Todd to have saved 2800. And perhaps more importantly, this whole discussion could lead to us making a better decision in a similar scenario, no?

By the way, where's Shane in all of this? We need his perspective. I'm quite certain he would have put DD on pocket fives and folded after the SB checked the flop.

Anonymous said...

Shane would put DD on pocket aces, making the presumption that his A was in fact from another deck. Faced with the prospect of showing a bogus card and calling quads, he would mumble, pause, mumble, shake head to left then right, and throw his cards violently into the muck, satisfied that he'd made an exceptionally disciplined laydown.

Tiny B said...

A couple more things about the hand. I completely planned to check fold the turn. I was convinced I was beat. I don't know why his check on the turn freed me up to bet the river. I had been playing with DD for 3-4 hours. He was frustrated and in my opinion could have been playing a flush draw. In fact after this hand, he re-raised all-in with AK, was called by QQ and was eliminated. Another mistake by me was not knowing exactly where DD was in chips. With me in the 10 seat and he in the 1 seat, I couldn't really see that he was calling a third of his chips on the flop...certainly my fault, but also the truth.

Also, I love Anonymous, unless in fact, Anonymous is someone I hate.

Andy said...

Not that this is exactly what you're asking, but I think you should've raised preflop. Having played with you a few times (this is Andy Albertson in Fayetteville, AR) I'd guess you've got a tight enough image that people would give you credit for a really big hand if you pop it to 1200-1500 TC out of position. Tilted though he might be, I can't see DD risking his tournament with presto when he's very in the running for Player of the Year. And if he limped UTG with aces or kings, he'd let you know right there by shoving his chips in. No way he cold calls pre-flop for 1/3 of his stack.

I would've done exactly what you did on the river. You have to call that last $1000. DD's obviously a good enough player to bluff at that pot one out of eight times, and you didn't know 100% you were beat.

Anyway, I realize I play looser than you do, but this summer at the WSOP I found this preflop play (it's in Harrington on Hold 'em) works really well against good players, especially when they have no idea who you are. It's a terrible play against bad, calling station types.

Tiny B said...

AA - Good to hear from you. Finally someone who has a clue about poker is commenting, other than Gonz. The raise pre-flop would have been a great play, but its a play I'd never make. I hate that about my game, but in a tourney like this, especially at stakes I probably shouldn't be playing, I play like a scared little girl only playing big hands or occasionally medium hands in good position. The way I play, I win very few hands. In Tunica, I survived without ever having any chips. In this tournament, I was lucky to double up twice, once with the nut flush with AK and the second time with a set of Jacks. Of course I pissed away a lot of those chips to DD in this hand.

TBR said...

AA--hmm, I think I like it. Even if DD decides to move in (which probably is unlikely) Todd certainly only loses the initial 1200-1500 he bets. Certainly impossible for him to just call with ANY hand he might have had, given his stack. of course, we can get really nuts. What about pushing in?

Andy said...

Todd -- I'm with you on the scared little girl syndrome in big buy-in events. I might've played 6 hands total in my first WSOP event this year. It was absolutely misearable. Luckily, I was on the happy end of a couple suck-outs and got really deep in a Caesar's tournament that night, so I wasn't as worried about the money anymore the next day, and I got back to playing like a quasi-wild ass.

tbr -- Do you mean, what if Todd pushed in preflop? I guess it's a possibility, but it seems like that's begging everyone else at the table to go away, and Todd doesn't want a call. I think DD's more likely to call the all-in than call or move in against Todd's 1200 raise. If you mean DD is all-in preflop, that's an easy fold for Todd.

This is much more fun than actually working. Thanks for posting this, Todd.

Tulsa said...

I know this sounds like a silly cliche, but when I LITERALLY almost spit coffee out my nose onto my laptop keyboard when I read this: "Shane would put DD on pocket aces, making the presumption that his A was in fact from another deck."

Good. Lord. So giggly.

I too love the pre-flop raise, but it's the sort of play that might make Todd, Adam, and others quit the home game, so I've had to stop doing it.

Anonymous said...

[bow]

Gentle Shane said...

I don't get it.

David said...

My friend told me someone wrote about a hand i played in so i decided i would look at this post he sent me the link too and since u seem like a nice guy i will tell u from my point of view...

I limp with 55. Flop AA5.. i put u on an ace because i dont believe u would bet out like that in first position with 5 players with a flush draw with a paired board. Turn comes blank.. I thought that u would think if i check i have a draw bet i have an ace so not to give u a free card if u have a flush draw... Hence i check my full house.. This is where i believe u made a mistake.. U should have check called the river... Or check folded .. betting $2000 out on the river is a loosing play in the long run.. believe me U can only beat a missed draw.. that is it and the only missed draw i may call u with that u can beat is KQ of hearts for nut two pair on the river (not likely i would even call with this) and also i did not go out to QQ, i raised the SB re-raised me like everyone does (perks of being aggressive) to 1700 i pushed in for like 7k or 5300 more and he called with 10 10... just like to clarify.. best of luck with all your endevors and hope to see u agian at the tables...

David

Tiny B said...

DD - Thanks for stopping by. Congrats on a great year. Hopefully we'll run into you in Tunica. We'll be the loud, obnoxious, drunk guys that are giving you all our chips.